@paul yeah we really need to build some infrastructure with the same capacity or that's gonna bite us in the ass down the line.
Also Facebook workers need to organize to demand and force Facebook adopt open standards that allow users to take their data elsewhere
@paul granted, what's been accomplished in spite of that is pretty heartening for how we can use those tools
@parleur Yeah sure:
It ties your activist actions to your real-life identity (and family/friends).
It keeps a record of every mouse movement, click, location and everything you type forever (even if you delete it)
It stores all your contacts and all their contacts and all their movements and interactions.
It knows a lot of sites you visit off of Facebook through their "like" buttons
If you're an activist this is very valuable data that can easily be used against you.
@paul Facebook has over 2 billion users on its network.
if actual outreach and coalition building is a key target for organizing, why in the world would we shun a tool obviously still critical in that realm?
I absolutely hate fb and wish everyone would come to #fediverse. That's also a pipe dream when ppl are busy and use the tools they know and cant get all the things here that they do there.
I remade an acct to keep up with comrades / access events.
Organize where effective.
@slackz Organising on Facebook is handing a nicely formatted list of all activists, all their contacts, friends and family, their 24/7 location data, browsing history, and a list of how to manipulate them to the authorities.
It doesn't matter how many people are there, it's not worth it.
If people truly care about an issue they'll go to the extreme inconvenience of typing a different URL into their browser to visit a safer site with less surveillance built in.
@paul yeah, that's why it's not the place to plan direct action. Also not every uses the app or gives carte blanche permissions.
But there's no sense in not promoting events or political education on there. Feels like security culture gone wrong
I think ppl should take steps to sandbox fb, but i think it's a mistake to avoid it altogether for organizing. I know so many organizers far more effective than I utilizing it very well. They also are far more targeted
@paul I deleted my fb acct when I made organizing.social and I noticed a significant negative impact on my ability to promote events and do outreach.
For May Day and for following community reported events and for keeping up with comrades across the country and globe...
I absolutely felt compelled to remake one. Doesn't mean you should if that's not right for you, but I think this attitude of "never organize on fb" is severely limiting and unrealistic
Would I like every single one of my comrades to perma delete fb and make the fediverse their social media home? Hell. Yes.
Is that going to happen? Absolutely not.
So the question is... do we abandon all those connections and channels of communication because it's a terrible platform?
I don't think that's remotely strategic. And I think it's selfish
@slackz @paul The only legitimate use of Facebook I see is to use it against the grain to get people off of Facebook. So, yes, use it to reach people you wouldn’t otherwise reach but not as the canonical location of any information or functionality. Make the canonical location of your activism an independent place and lead people there with every post on Facebook (if it even reaches them via their algorithmically-censored timelines).
I dont see all their posts, surely i don't trust fb for curating all the things, sometimes I have to click thru to profile to see various things.
But I also know if I just chucked fb i the trash, I would miss all that and be a lesser organizer. Yea fuck fb and let's persuade ppl off, but there's a lot of nuance here
@MH @paul tell that to All-African People's Revolutionary Party comrades or folks fighting pipelines in Louisiana or the rad abolitionists in Chicago. Facebook and twitter are corporate cesspools and problems for all sorts of reasons, but organizers have used those platforms extremely effectively.
Of course I prefer a transparent chronological feed on the fediverse and hate the algorithmic fuckery, but please don't erase ppls' effective use of those tools
I dunno what your experience is but so many incredible organizers I know have very positive traction on there and your naive assertion implies that they're somehow puppets and their message is only allowed cause fb wants it to.
I have far too much evidence to the contrary and tbh I would examine why you're making this argument
You are arguing against something I'm not saying. Read my comments again.
Put 'Facebook shadow-ban' in a search engine and you'll see that my "naive assertion" of them suppressing posts and pages as they like is 100% true, as admitted by Facebook themselves a few months ago.
But it's also not fair to say that if Facebook doesn't approve of content it goes nowhere. I respect a lot of organizers who've made a well-informed decision: yes, facebook is terrible and not to be trusted; also it's a useful tool for certain types of outreach and comms work. And they've been very effective on there
Unless messaging groups are pretty exclusive, the data is fairly easily to extract regardless.
I also have my doubts on the security of the computers involved.
Of course, assuming no complete literal invasion of our homes, might force them out of knowing everything.
And also, probably Facebook tracks quite a lot of behavior as to where you click, which Mastodon doesn't.
@paul i know, it will NEVER work. and is probably also sinful and not nutritional.
@paul *don't use Facebook.
@paul I mean, sure, but somebody needs to build a better platform (or ideally have built one 6-8 years ago when this started to be a problem). without Events and Groups it's a lot harder to coordinate stuff, and I don't see anybody trying to replicate those features as they're used. even an 80% solution would be a start but there's just nothing out there
@paul this is a very broad question that's hard to answer concisely
Groups are a low-friction way of hosting a discussion board with one-click sign up and immediate integration into users' existing social stream/notifications/etc. It's not something you can replicate with a forum, IRC or mailing list without losing a big chunk of functionality/usability
@paul Events are hard to describe if you haven't used them; they're kinda like facebook's secret killer feature. Basically you create an event and it becomes a node with its own discussion board, photo album, etc; you invite people to it and can optionally allow them to invite more people; you can specify a visibility level; other people can share it on their timelines or announce that they're going; you can see who is attending an event and which ones your friends are at
social.device5.co.uk is one server in the network