@paul sadly it seems like that's my last resort if i wanna find roomies

@paul yeah we really need to build some infrastructure with the same capacity or that's gonna bite us in the ass down the line.

Also Facebook workers need to organize to demand and force Facebook adopt open standards that allow users to take their data elsewhere

@marxistpenguinist Agreed, there needs to be something better to use. It doesn't have to be perfect. Even something with zero surveillance is an immediate improvement on what FB offers.

@paul granted, what's been accomplished in spite of that is pretty heartening for how we can use those tools

@paul I totally agree, but can we know what makes you say so, so I can have more arguments for other people who still uses it ? :)

@parleur Yeah sure:

It ties your activist actions to your real-life identity (and family/friends).

It keeps a record of every mouse movement, click, location and everything you type forever (even if you delete it)

It stores all your contacts and all their contacts and all their movements and interactions.

It knows a lot of sites you visit off of Facebook through their "like" buttons

If you're an activist this is very valuable data that can easily be used against you.

@paul Facebook has over 2 billion users on its network.

if actual outreach and coalition building is a key target for organizing, why in the world would we shun a tool obviously still critical in that realm?

I absolutely hate fb and wish everyone would come to #fediverse. That's also a pipe dream when ppl are busy and use the tools they know and cant get all the things here that they do there.

I remade an acct to keep up with comrades / access events.

Organize where effective.
Always.

@slackz Organising on Facebook is handing a nicely formatted list of all activists, all their contacts, friends and family, their 24/7 location data, browsing history, and a list of how to manipulate them to the authorities.

It doesn't matter how many people are there, it's not worth it.

If people truly care about an issue they'll go to the extreme inconvenience of typing a different URL into their browser to visit a safer site with less surveillance built in.

@paul yeah, that's why it's not the place to plan direct action. Also not every uses the app or gives carte blanche permissions.

But there's no sense in not promoting events or political education on there. Feels like security culture gone wrong

I think ppl should take steps to sandbox fb, but i think it's a mistake to avoid it altogether for organizing. I know so many organizers far more effective than I utilizing it very well. They also are far more targeted

@paul I deleted my fb acct when I made organizing.social and I noticed a significant negative impact on my ability to promote events and do outreach.

For May Day and for following community reported events and for keeping up with comrades across the country and globe...

I absolutely felt compelled to remake one. Doesn't mean you should if that's not right for you, but I think this attitude of "never organize on fb" is severely limiting and unrealistic

@slackz @paul maybe the real should be only organized explicitly public and explicitly legal things on Facebook and direct people to other places for everything else

@DJWalnut @paul yeah, def not the place for anything sensitive. And we should certainly focus on building up alternatives. I would love to spend all my social media time on #OrgSoc (mastodon), but we also need to meet ppl where they're at.

@paul @slackz This.

Audre Lorde said it best: “The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house.”

#SurveillanceCapitalism

@aral @paul the argument is not that fb is some force for good, but rather that we should be pragmatic enough to not let ideals blind us.

Would I like every single one of my comrades to perma delete fb and make the fediverse their social media home? Hell. Yes.

Is that going to happen? Absolutely not.

So the question is... do we abandon all those connections and channels of communication because it's a terrible platform?

I don't think that's remotely strategic. And I think it's selfish

@slackz @paul The only legitimate use of Facebook I see is to use it against the grain to get people off of Facebook. So, yes, use it to reach people you wouldn’t otherwise reach but not as the canonical location of any information or functionality. Make the canonical location of your activism an independent place and lead people there with every post on Facebook (if it even reaches them via their algorithmically-censored timelines).

2018.ar.al/notes/spyware-vs-sp

@aral @paul I read content everyday on fb that i would not see elsewhere. Pan-African revolutionaries, prison / police abolitionists, incredible indigenous activists...

I dont see all their posts, surely i don't trust fb for curating all the things, sometimes I have to click thru to profile to see various things.

But I also know if I just chucked fb i the trash, I would miss all that and be a lesser organizer. Yea fuck fb and let's persuade ppl off, but there's a lot of nuance here

@paul @slackz ahh i see you answered the questions already :)

what are the best activist instances here on mastodon?

i am interested in starting my own instance here for an idea i was about to begin on facebook

now i need to learn how to setup my own reliable server first :)

@lovi Have a look around the instances listed here joinmastodon.org for something that might suit.

If there isn't anything that's quite right, start your own instance with a few friends and go from there

@lovi @paul you would be very welcome on organizing.social :)
I can send invite if you're interested...

@slackz @paul yes please send an invite — actually i was wondering how i do sign up for new instances as i'm a noob here on mastodon :)

@paul @slackz Limiting your reach when organizing sounds like a terrible idea. Sure, pull it off of facebook but use the tools available.

@slackz
@paul - If Facebook doesn't like your cause you won't reach anyone anyway.

@MH @paul tell that to All-African People's Revolutionary Party comrades or folks fighting pipelines in Louisiana or the rad abolitionists in Chicago. Facebook and twitter are corporate cesspools and problems for all sorts of reasons, but organizers have used those platforms extremely effectively.

Of course I prefer a transparent chronological feed on the fediverse and hate the algorithmic fuckery, but please don't erase ppls' effective use of those tools

@slackz @paul - Tell them what? That they were lucky to be under the mercy of Facebook?

Let me rephrase: Outreach on Facebook is only effective if Facebook allows it to be. Many people have been burnt by putting themselves in that position.

@MH @paul you are fundamentally ignoring and disrespecting the people who have done very effective outreach work on fb despite the shenanigans.

I dunno what your experience is but so many incredible organizers I know have very positive traction on there and your naive assertion implies that they're somehow puppets and their message is only allowed cause fb wants it to.

Bullshit.

I have far too much evidence to the contrary and tbh I would examine why you're making this argument

@slackz @paul - You are fundamentally ignoring what I'm saying. I've never claimed outreach can't be effective on Facebook.

You are arguing against something I'm not saying. Read my comments again.

Put 'Facebook shadow-ban' in a search engine and you'll see that my "naive assertion" of them suppressing posts and pages as they like is 100% true, as admitted by Facebook themselves a few months ago.

@MH @paul I'm not saying that doesn't happen. And I know the terrible things fb has done with respect to managing content / abuse / etc. Not ignoring that.

But it's also not fair to say that if Facebook doesn't approve of content it goes nowhere. I respect a lot of organizers who've made a well-informed decision: yes, facebook is terrible and not to be trusted; also it's a useful tool for certain types of outreach and comms work. And they've been very effective on there

@paul fuckin i learned that shit the hard way. Still trying to get comrades to shift onto here...

@Wewereseeds @paul reminder that mastodon posts are public too, and it is not particularly suitable for direct messaging.

Unless messaging groups are pretty exclusive, the data is fairly easily to extract regardless.

I also have my doubts on the security of the computers involved.

Of course, assuming no complete literal invasion of our homes, might force them out of knowing everything.

And also, probably Facebook tracks quite a lot of behavior as to where you click, which Mastodon doesn't.

@Wewereseeds @paul if people use client-side applications what can do public key private messages might be send without the instances being able to read them..

Also maybe "circles" will be added or something, ditto for keeping things in the circle. Though little more complex crypto i think.

@jasper @paul i mean you're right in that almost nothing that is widely accessible is also less secure. But it's always good to move away from actual monitoring sites

@paul collaborate outside the surveillosphere

@paul you download a cop instead; you're under arrest

@paul I mean, sure, but somebody needs to build a better platform (or ideally have built one 6-8 years ago when this started to be a problem). without Events and Groups it's a lot harder to coordinate stuff, and I don't see anybody trying to replicate those features as they're used. even an 80% solution would be a start but there's just nothing out there

@aeonofdiscord what features are missing from currently available alternatives? I don't have a FB account so don't know what groups/events involve.

@paul this is a very broad question that's hard to answer concisely

Groups are a low-friction way of hosting a discussion board with one-click sign up and immediate integration into users' existing social stream/notifications/etc. It's not something you can replicate with a forum, IRC or mailing list without losing a big chunk of functionality/usability

@paul like I'm 100% baffled as to how you came to that conclusion, it's a total non-sequitur

@paul Events are hard to describe if you haven't used them; they're kinda like facebook's secret killer feature. Basically you create an event and it becomes a node with its own discussion board, photo album, etc; you invite people to it and can optionally allow them to invite more people; you can specify a visibility level; other people can share it on their timelines or announce that they're going; you can see who is attending an event and which ones your friends are at

@paul I've had to elide a lot for brevity here so it sounds a lot simpler than it is

@paul also, how to organize on not-facebook when many friends are still using that platform primarily?

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